Musings on Thorin
Dec. 5th, 2018 04:51 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
grundyscribblingAnyone who follows me on Tumblr saw my back and forth with Mainecoon76 about Thorin and the siege of Erebor immediately prior to the battle of Five Armies.
I feel the need to clarify that I'm not coming at this from an anti-dwarf or anti-Thorin perspective so much as a 'was he effective?' perspective. And unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with Gandalf's assessment of Thorin - he was not cutting a very splendid figure as King under the Mountain.
As King, Thorin should be thinking about how to achieve the best possible outcome for his people. But Thorin seems to somehow* have gotten it in his mind that keeping the entire treasure is the best outcome. It's not. The best outcome is a stable and prosperous restored Kingdom under the Mountain. (Thorin should be able to recognize this - he has, after all done the difficult work of restoring his people to some degree of prosperity and pride prior to setting out on his quest to the Mountain.) He can keep all the gold, but it's not going to matter if he has to constantly be keeping an eye on the enemies on his very doorstep or nominally ruling people he can't feed.
Roäc - who is hardly anti-dwarf and as best as I can determine acts in the interests of the dwarves of the mountain initially, and thereafter in accordance with Thorin's wishes - advised Thorin immediately after giving him news of Smaug's death and the gathering of those who looked toward the treasure in the mountain to deal with Bard, bypassing the Master of Laketown. This is sound advice. It might cost him more treasure than Thorin would like in the short term, but it would buy him a lasting friendship that will be vital for the Mountain in the long term.
The Lake-men are in desperate straits after the destruction of Laketown. They've got most of their population, their livestock, pastures, and fields, but that's about it. They don't have adequate shelter or food, and people who survived the initial disaster are dying of hunger, cold, and sickness.
Thorin obviously can't provide much for them in the way of food or manpower, not when he only has 12 dwarves plus Bilbo and they're on short rations themselves. What's more, he's right to prioritize fortifying the Mountain for its defense, even if his immediate reasoning as to why he's doing so is wrong. But buying the goodwill of the Lake-men with a pledge of a portion from the treasure at this point, before Bard and Thranduil even arrived, would be smart dealing on his part.
First of all, not all the treasure was the dwarves' in the first place - Smaug added his plunder from Dale and its environs to what was in the Mountain. Thorin's argument that it belongs to the dwarves because Smaug deprived them of life and home doesn't hold water when Smaug did much the same to Dale long before the destruction of Laketown, and trying to make that argument publicly makes Thorin look bad. (Appearances do matter in public diplomacy.) Moreover, the Lake-men helped Thorin's company when they arrived in Laketown in similarly desperate straits - wet, cold, hungry, with little but what they had on their backs. Now would be a good time to pay back - especially when the dwarves stand to gain much from it.
The good will of the Laketown survivors (and potentially the people of a restored Dale) is important for more than just the moment. Recall what Thorin said at the outset of The Hobbit about the glory days of the Mountain: Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves. [Emphasis mine.] The Mountain is a kingdom that is not self-sufficient in terms of food! It depended on trade to feed itself - and even if the dwarves had the area and security required to produce enough food for a repopulated mountain, it's likely they don't have the necessary knowledge of farming or livestock husbandry. That institutional knowledge didn't exist before Smaug destroyed most of their population; the survivors have since been working as miners and smiths, not farmhands. Thorin is missing a golden opportunity to lay a solid foundation for a good relationship with the very people who should be the Mountain's natural trade partners. (The Lake-men also urgently need things the dwarves are well placed to produce if the two people aren't at odds - metalwork in the form of tools, building goods such as nails and hinges, and domestic goods like pots and pans, in decent quantities. Given the Lake-men have little else to trade at the moment, the dwarves stood to get back much of any of the treasure they gave the Lake-men fairly quickly!)
What's more, any argument that Bard and Thranduil were somehow wrong to approach the mountain with their armies ignores that Thorin at no point informed them that he and his people were alive. Without that knowledge, they're not intentionally marching into another leader's territory - which could be considered an act of war - they're marching into unheld territory. (Territory Dain of the Iron Hills could potentially claim, but in his absence, there's no one with a clear right to it and more importantly no one defending it.) It's absolutely sensible of them to approach with caution - just because they've moved fairly quickly doesn't mean someone worse wasn't quicker. That Thorin treats their conduct as unwarranted and hostile ignores the reality of the situation - in the power vacuum created by Smaug's death someone is going to move to claim the Mountain, and given the current geopolitical situation there's a range of unpleasant possibilities for who 'someone' might be, ranging all the way from goblins to Sauron. I will grant that Thorin couldn't have known about the potential Sauron aspect, but he's sharp enough that he should recognize that a prize like the mountain won't sit around empty for long, and that there are worse groups likely to take interest than the Lake-men and elves of Mirkwood.
Thorin could perhaps justify his 'greeting' in the initial contact with Thranduil and Bard's subordinates, but again, what does it gain him? Was it effective? By treating them as potential enemies rather than potential allies, all he achieved was creating needless ill-will. Again, recall that while the Lake-men can't currently feed themselves, Thorin and company are eating cram! Civil words and assuring his 'friends' who were coming to check on him that he and his folk are well sets a much better tone for negotiation than "who are you that come as if in war?" This is not about being nice, it's about getting what Thorin wants, and what his people need - and you get more from folk who believe you consider them friends than people who recognize you are treating them as enemies.
Demanding that Thranduil withdraw is provocative no matter what perspective one adopts - it wouldn't matter if Thranduil had personally slaughtered Thorin's favorite puppy, when allies come to the table together, you're asking for trouble by openly and publicly trying to separate them. It's foolish and bad diplomacy, and again, not effective. Sure, it's possible that it might work, but it's a long shot. It's far more likely that Bard feels he can't ask Thranduil to leave under the circumstances for fear of giving offense, not to mention concern that doing would demonstrates that he will cave to such bad behavior and give up his ally - in short, proving himself easy pickings. As for Thranduil, if he voluntarily retreats, he leaves a man new to leadership dealing with an opponent who is to all appearances not acting in good faith. (Thranduil became king when his father died in battle. He may know a thing or two about the problems of new leaders who weren't expecting to be in charge in a tense situation.) In short, there are solid reasons for both to wish to continue negotiations as a team rather than Bard going it alone. And even if Thorin feels this is vital, his approach is highly unlikely to succeed. Again, all he achieves is creating ill-will.
Moving from 'not good' to worse, Thorin was the first of the three leaders to threaten violence ("Begone now ere our arrows fly!") in negotiations, and the first to actually use it - and against messengers, at that. Assaulting messengers in a situation like this is an act of war. This is not only egregious on its face, it's absolutely disastrous as far as achieving a good outcome for the dwarves of the Mountain. There is no reasonable expectation from any perspective that Bard and Thranduil can or will let such an action slide; a non-violent siege is actually a very measured response. But beyond that, even once he discovers Thranduil and Bard had been given the Arkenstone, Thorin was still set on trying to keep all the treasure and regain the Arkenstone.
Again, what do Thorin's actions do to achieve a good outcome for his people? What was his path to his idea of winning? Being besieged when they're already short of food is not a good situation. Depending on Dain to be able to evade or break the siege to get into the Mountain is not a solid plan. We are told Dain was bringing "at least five hundred" dwarves. Even if you discount Thranduil's assessment that the men and elves have superior numbers (and I don't), given Balin's reaction to the camp of the men and elves - 'very great' - and that this is a camp of a picked body that we are told left behind women, children, the sick, and the old, meaning it's only fighting fit men/elves, it's unlikely that Dain outnumbers the besieging forces. At best maybe he achieves parity. But defenders generally have an advantage unless they're in a bad position (no indication Bard and Thranduil were), and Dain's forces are just off a long march at a quick pace - so no advantage to Dain. Thranduil is old enough to have seen the War of the Last Alliance. This is not his first battle. Counting on him to make stupid or rookie mistakes is not a solid strategy. Moreover, however good Dain may be, there's no indication he's fought anything but goblins before. He certainly hasn't fought elves - there hasn't been a war between dwarves and elves in his lifetime. While one might accuse Thranduil of overconfidence, given his experience, it's likely his assessment that their strength of numbers will give him and Bard the upper hand if it comes to a fight is accurate. All of which is to say that Thorin's 'strategy', such as it is, involves a lot of wishful thinking and best-case scenario - generally not the mark of a good leader.
Thorin simply wasn't making the moves he needed to make for the good of his people and his kingdom, regardless of anything Bard and Thranduil were or weren't doing. And it nearly led to disaster for the dwarves. I'm not contrasting Thorin with Bard and Thranduil. I'm contrasting him with his cousin Dain - the dwarf who ended up King under the Mountain after Thorin's behavior cost not only his own life, but the lives of his sister-sons, ending the line of Thror. Dain actually did the things Thorin should have but didn't: honored his word, and forged a close relationship with Bard and the Lake-men/men of Dale that benefited both peoples and carried all the way through the War of the Ring. And it's with that in mind that I'm finding Thorin's behavior from the time of regaining the Mountain until the Battle of Five Armies rather lacking.
*The book offers the effects of 'gold upon which a dragon has long brooded' as a reason, and given that previously Thorin was shown to be a good leader who took care of his people - Bilbo included, Peter Jackson! - I'm inclined to go with it.
I feel the need to clarify that I'm not coming at this from an anti-dwarf or anti-Thorin perspective so much as a 'was he effective?' perspective. And unfortunately, I find myself agreeing with Gandalf's assessment of Thorin - he was not cutting a very splendid figure as King under the Mountain.
As King, Thorin should be thinking about how to achieve the best possible outcome for his people. But Thorin seems to somehow* have gotten it in his mind that keeping the entire treasure is the best outcome. It's not. The best outcome is a stable and prosperous restored Kingdom under the Mountain. (Thorin should be able to recognize this - he has, after all done the difficult work of restoring his people to some degree of prosperity and pride prior to setting out on his quest to the Mountain.) He can keep all the gold, but it's not going to matter if he has to constantly be keeping an eye on the enemies on his very doorstep or nominally ruling people he can't feed.
Roäc - who is hardly anti-dwarf and as best as I can determine acts in the interests of the dwarves of the mountain initially, and thereafter in accordance with Thorin's wishes - advised Thorin immediately after giving him news of Smaug's death and the gathering of those who looked toward the treasure in the mountain to deal with Bard, bypassing the Master of Laketown. This is sound advice. It might cost him more treasure than Thorin would like in the short term, but it would buy him a lasting friendship that will be vital for the Mountain in the long term.
The Lake-men are in desperate straits after the destruction of Laketown. They've got most of their population, their livestock, pastures, and fields, but that's about it. They don't have adequate shelter or food, and people who survived the initial disaster are dying of hunger, cold, and sickness.
Thorin obviously can't provide much for them in the way of food or manpower, not when he only has 12 dwarves plus Bilbo and they're on short rations themselves. What's more, he's right to prioritize fortifying the Mountain for its defense, even if his immediate reasoning as to why he's doing so is wrong. But buying the goodwill of the Lake-men with a pledge of a portion from the treasure at this point, before Bard and Thranduil even arrived, would be smart dealing on his part.
First of all, not all the treasure was the dwarves' in the first place - Smaug added his plunder from Dale and its environs to what was in the Mountain. Thorin's argument that it belongs to the dwarves because Smaug deprived them of life and home doesn't hold water when Smaug did much the same to Dale long before the destruction of Laketown, and trying to make that argument publicly makes Thorin look bad. (Appearances do matter in public diplomacy.) Moreover, the Lake-men helped Thorin's company when they arrived in Laketown in similarly desperate straits - wet, cold, hungry, with little but what they had on their backs. Now would be a good time to pay back - especially when the dwarves stand to gain much from it.
The good will of the Laketown survivors (and potentially the people of a restored Dale) is important for more than just the moment. Recall what Thorin said at the outset of The Hobbit about the glory days of the Mountain: Fathers would beg us to take their sons as apprentices, and pay us handsomely, especially in food supplies, which we never bothered to grow or find for ourselves. [Emphasis mine.] The Mountain is a kingdom that is not self-sufficient in terms of food! It depended on trade to feed itself - and even if the dwarves had the area and security required to produce enough food for a repopulated mountain, it's likely they don't have the necessary knowledge of farming or livestock husbandry. That institutional knowledge didn't exist before Smaug destroyed most of their population; the survivors have since been working as miners and smiths, not farmhands. Thorin is missing a golden opportunity to lay a solid foundation for a good relationship with the very people who should be the Mountain's natural trade partners. (The Lake-men also urgently need things the dwarves are well placed to produce if the two people aren't at odds - metalwork in the form of tools, building goods such as nails and hinges, and domestic goods like pots and pans, in decent quantities. Given the Lake-men have little else to trade at the moment, the dwarves stood to get back much of any of the treasure they gave the Lake-men fairly quickly!)
What's more, any argument that Bard and Thranduil were somehow wrong to approach the mountain with their armies ignores that Thorin at no point informed them that he and his people were alive. Without that knowledge, they're not intentionally marching into another leader's territory - which could be considered an act of war - they're marching into unheld territory. (Territory Dain of the Iron Hills could potentially claim, but in his absence, there's no one with a clear right to it and more importantly no one defending it.) It's absolutely sensible of them to approach with caution - just because they've moved fairly quickly doesn't mean someone worse wasn't quicker. That Thorin treats their conduct as unwarranted and hostile ignores the reality of the situation - in the power vacuum created by Smaug's death someone is going to move to claim the Mountain, and given the current geopolitical situation there's a range of unpleasant possibilities for who 'someone' might be, ranging all the way from goblins to Sauron. I will grant that Thorin couldn't have known about the potential Sauron aspect, but he's sharp enough that he should recognize that a prize like the mountain won't sit around empty for long, and that there are worse groups likely to take interest than the Lake-men and elves of Mirkwood.
Thorin could perhaps justify his 'greeting' in the initial contact with Thranduil and Bard's subordinates, but again, what does it gain him? Was it effective? By treating them as potential enemies rather than potential allies, all he achieved was creating needless ill-will. Again, recall that while the Lake-men can't currently feed themselves, Thorin and company are eating cram! Civil words and assuring his 'friends' who were coming to check on him that he and his folk are well sets a much better tone for negotiation than "who are you that come as if in war?" This is not about being nice, it's about getting what Thorin wants, and what his people need - and you get more from folk who believe you consider them friends than people who recognize you are treating them as enemies.
Demanding that Thranduil withdraw is provocative no matter what perspective one adopts - it wouldn't matter if Thranduil had personally slaughtered Thorin's favorite puppy, when allies come to the table together, you're asking for trouble by openly and publicly trying to separate them. It's foolish and bad diplomacy, and again, not effective. Sure, it's possible that it might work, but it's a long shot. It's far more likely that Bard feels he can't ask Thranduil to leave under the circumstances for fear of giving offense, not to mention concern that doing would demonstrates that he will cave to such bad behavior and give up his ally - in short, proving himself easy pickings. As for Thranduil, if he voluntarily retreats, he leaves a man new to leadership dealing with an opponent who is to all appearances not acting in good faith. (Thranduil became king when his father died in battle. He may know a thing or two about the problems of new leaders who weren't expecting to be in charge in a tense situation.) In short, there are solid reasons for both to wish to continue negotiations as a team rather than Bard going it alone. And even if Thorin feels this is vital, his approach is highly unlikely to succeed. Again, all he achieves is creating ill-will.
Moving from 'not good' to worse, Thorin was the first of the three leaders to threaten violence ("Begone now ere our arrows fly!") in negotiations, and the first to actually use it - and against messengers, at that. Assaulting messengers in a situation like this is an act of war. This is not only egregious on its face, it's absolutely disastrous as far as achieving a good outcome for the dwarves of the Mountain. There is no reasonable expectation from any perspective that Bard and Thranduil can or will let such an action slide; a non-violent siege is actually a very measured response. But beyond that, even once he discovers Thranduil and Bard had been given the Arkenstone, Thorin was still set on trying to keep all the treasure and regain the Arkenstone.
Again, what do Thorin's actions do to achieve a good outcome for his people? What was his path to his idea of winning? Being besieged when they're already short of food is not a good situation. Depending on Dain to be able to evade or break the siege to get into the Mountain is not a solid plan. We are told Dain was bringing "at least five hundred" dwarves. Even if you discount Thranduil's assessment that the men and elves have superior numbers (and I don't), given Balin's reaction to the camp of the men and elves - 'very great' - and that this is a camp of a picked body that we are told left behind women, children, the sick, and the old, meaning it's only fighting fit men/elves, it's unlikely that Dain outnumbers the besieging forces. At best maybe he achieves parity. But defenders generally have an advantage unless they're in a bad position (no indication Bard and Thranduil were), and Dain's forces are just off a long march at a quick pace - so no advantage to Dain. Thranduil is old enough to have seen the War of the Last Alliance. This is not his first battle. Counting on him to make stupid or rookie mistakes is not a solid strategy. Moreover, however good Dain may be, there's no indication he's fought anything but goblins before. He certainly hasn't fought elves - there hasn't been a war between dwarves and elves in his lifetime. While one might accuse Thranduil of overconfidence, given his experience, it's likely his assessment that their strength of numbers will give him and Bard the upper hand if it comes to a fight is accurate. All of which is to say that Thorin's 'strategy', such as it is, involves a lot of wishful thinking and best-case scenario - generally not the mark of a good leader.
Thorin simply wasn't making the moves he needed to make for the good of his people and his kingdom, regardless of anything Bard and Thranduil were or weren't doing. And it nearly led to disaster for the dwarves. I'm not contrasting Thorin with Bard and Thranduil. I'm contrasting him with his cousin Dain - the dwarf who ended up King under the Mountain after Thorin's behavior cost not only his own life, but the lives of his sister-sons, ending the line of Thror. Dain actually did the things Thorin should have but didn't: honored his word, and forged a close relationship with Bard and the Lake-men/men of Dale that benefited both peoples and carried all the way through the War of the Ring. And it's with that in mind that I'm finding Thorin's behavior from the time of regaining the Mountain until the Battle of Five Armies rather lacking.
*The book offers the effects of 'gold upon which a dragon has long brooded' as a reason, and given that previously Thorin was shown to be a good leader who took care of his people - Bilbo included, Peter Jackson! - I'm inclined to go with it.
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 12:30 am (UTC)Where did I say Thorin should be 'friendly'? I'm saying he should have been diplomatic. I'm not talking about being nice, I'm talking about making nice and verbally out-manuevering Bard. (Given that Thorin is more practiced than Bard at oratory and public speaking, it should be easy for him to do!) Publicly proclaiming his confidence his 'friends' were only coming to check on him puts Thranduil and Bard in very different position than announcing he thinks they're there to steal from him. By expressing such confidence, Thorin still wrong-foots them, but in a way they can't get their backs up about - because it's what they should be doing. Bard can't very well admit that such an expression of confidence is misplaced! The best he can do at that point is say that he had feared the worst and is pleased to be wrong. And by not starting with the insults, Thorin doesn't get insults in return - which changes the tone of the subsequent interaction.
This also overlooks the not insignificant detail that while Thorin may be justified in his distrust, it's incontrovertible that without the aid of the Lake-men, he would not be in the Mountain at all. By treating their representative as if they now have to do still more to win his trust and deserve fair treatment after the fallout of his actions has completely destroyed their town and put them on the brink of complete collapse, he's showing a degree of ingratitude and entitlement that doesn't bode well for future interactions. And if I'm in Bard's shoes, there's no way I can indulge such an attitude. If I'm not trading with the Mountain - and with an attitude like Thorin's showing, I don't have much confidence I will be - I'm still going to have to trade with someone, and establishing a reputation for groveling and giving it all away as Thorin is demanding I do sets me up for uphill battles in future trade and diplomatic deals.
And again, I don't see how any of what you're claiming should happen works out for the Mountain long term. Sure, Thorin can force the Lakemen to their knees and make them grovel before he'll deign to give up what's due the descendants of Dale. (If he does at all - it doesn't sound from the text like he was planning on it.) But all that's going to do is breed resentment, and Thorin's people will pay for that in the form of higher food prices when they have to import food from farther away and a distrustful neighbor right on their doorstep. That's not the prosperous and respected kingdom Thorin recalls in his youth.
You're trying to say that Thorin is within his rights to demand what Thranduil and Bard were doing near his Mountain when they didn't know he was alive, but turn around and say that Thranduil - whose kingdom has been existent longer than Thorin has been alive - had no right to question what the dwarves were doing wandering around in his territory well away from the established road, and should have accepted Thorin refusing to answer such a basic question? *blinks*
The orcs may have been the aggressor in the battle, but that does not preclude Thorin or any other commanders of the allied armies making bad decisions. It's possible for me to say that the Japanese were at fault for US entrance into WWII yet still identify tactical decisions made by US commanders in that war that led to unnecessary casualties. The one does not negate the other.
Failure of discipline in battle has lost many a battle over the centuries. Experienced tacticians will attempt to engineer such failures by enemy forces - by offering an apparent 'retreat' or break in their lines, they can lure overconfident or undisciplined troops into a trap. Thorin's 'to me, to me!' moment broke the lines of both Dain and Bard's forces, and even drew off some of Thranduil's people, who all obeyed him above their own commanders. That kind of breakdown is something that you generally try to avoid in a battle. The text makes it clear Thorin's attack was successful in the short-term only - he went beyond the arms of the mountain and thus beyond help from what remained of the forces of his allies on those arms, and was being overwhelmed.
Far from saving the day, Thorin's charge petered out and left him surrounded, outnumbered, with no hope of relief and the defenses on the arms of the Mountain too depleted to withstand renewed assault. The allied armies were about to be soundly beaten, and would have been but for the timely arrival of the Eagles. Forgive me, but I think Thorin's 'calculated risk' was very badly calculated indeed. It was a high-risk gamble with little prospect of payoff.
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 08:38 am (UTC)Of course the wisest thing would have been to not to insult at all! But no one did that, and no one was entirely justified.
And I confess that now I'm blinking too, because how on earth are Thorin's and Thranduil's situation comparable? Thranduil rightfully demanded an explanation, yes. But he did so in a needlessly hostile way, against people who posed no threat to him in numbers, had not harmed him before, and whose only trespass was that they had lost their way in a spider-infested forest and were looking for help. (Again, please note how Thorin and Elrond get along. The movie was wrong about that: the elves do a bit of teasing and the dwarves a bit of grumbling, but it's all very good-natured and an altogether pleasant stay.)
So it's ok for Thranduil to do this, but if Thorin says "wtf?" to an entire host of people who obviously want his property, half of whom are of a folk who have no right to it and treated him in a hostile manner before, then *he's* unreasonable?
(Again, I'm not saying he *is* reasonable. But I still think that looking at his faults only and excuse the others is highly biased.)
But since we're both blinking now and I don't want to fight, I suggest we call it a draw? We obviously won't convince each other. How do you feel about an orc-killing competition?
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 02:52 pm (UTC)But yeah, we're going in circles. I also feel like in your pro-dwarf fervor, you're overlooking my (admittedly only stated once) reason for why I believe Thorin was unreasonable. Given what we're told about the effects of dragon gold (and looking at its observable effects on a character previously established to be a good or at absolute least competent leader, I'd say 'dragon sickness' is probably a better way to refer to it), I question whether Thorin was in his right mind for much of the time from regaining the Mountain until some point during/immediately after the Battle of Five Armies. What's more, I can't find anything in the text to indicate that Thorin knew that such an effect was possible - while the narrator is aware that dragon gold can do funny things to people, Gandalf never warned anyone about it. So I see Thorin being caught unaware by what is essentially a mental assault he didn't know he needed to guard against. (He also had no one around him who could have realized what was happening- if Thorin didn't know about dragon sickness, it's unlikely the rest of the dwarves did either; Bilbo recognized that something was not quite right but didn't have sufficient knowledge of dragon lore to identify what that 'something' might be.)
Orc killing? I hope you're not expecting any movie!Legolas-like defiance of the laws of physics. (Are there rules to the competition?)
no subject
Date: 2018-12-07 05:25 pm (UTC)Anyway, if you'd started this conversation by claiming that Thorin is a poor innocent victim and Bard was mean to him, it would have gone very differently.
Yes, I'm quite sure I remember the book. (Not your fault, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I rediscovered Tolkien in the Hobbit fandom, after being away for several years. There's an unfortunate tendency among people who dislike the movies to claim that Hobbit fans only thirst for Hot Dwarves and don't care about the book. Apparently - and no joke, I've heard this - one sign of a True Tolkien Nerd is that they hate the Hobbit movies? This is bullshit, and repeated exposure to this bullshit may be why I'm reacting a bit snappy here.) The book says that that the elves treated the dwarves harshly because of their old anti-dwarf grudges even though Thorin's family had nothing to do with that, and also that Thorin was angry about this - before the questioning even began. (Yes, again, it was unwise not to cooperate. But dwarves are described as stubborn and proud.) It also says that Thranduil had a well-known weakness for riches and that's why Thorin was especially unwilling to be pressured for information.
Was Thorin in his right mind? That is debatable, probably not. But unlike in the movies, I think book!Thorin isn't acting that much out of character. He wants this treasure, and especially the Arkenstone, before he even sets foot into Erebor, and I don't think he can be entirely excused with a mental condition. Pride, thick-headedness, grudginess and anger: he displays all those traits throughout the quest. *shrugs* So you see, I'm not even so much pro-dwarf. Just saying that they all made mistakes. Bard is grim and undiplomatic (and while I'm criticizing him, he's the one who can most likely be excused because he never learned this and at the time was pissed at Smaug, the Master, the Dwarves and the world in general). Thranduil has anti-dwarf resentments. Both attempt to force the dwarves into submission. Note that all three leaders learn from their mistakes and move on, and I think that's wonderful.
(No idea. It comes to me now that it might be difficult to find orcs around here. Hm.)