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grundyscribblingAnd still have it be understandable how it got here. (Let me know how I'm doing. I know the formatting didn't carry over - I realized too late I should have gone with the Rich Text editor for this.)
It's mostly behind a cut, because by the time I thought to askmainecoon76 if we could bring it over here for the wonders of (threaded) comments without character limits and not having to keep blogging or post multiple comments to keep discussing, the reblog chain had already gotten fairly long.
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zealouswerewolfcollector:
Why did Thranduil (and the Lake-men) feel the need to bring an army against thirteen dwarves and one hobbit?
(Also, really, Bilbo? You don’t like the dwarves’ songs because they’re warlike, but the army besieging the mountain is fine because the elven songs are pretty?)
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cycas:
I assumed that Thranduil brought an army partly because kings travel with warbands.
But also because he’s a king who has been slowly losing ground to Dol Guldur, it’s weird creepy darkness and the giant spiders for centuries. Even his kingdom is now called Mirkwood now rather than Greenwood.
Geographically, he’s almost entirely encircled by enemies. His route to Rivendell through the mountains is now cut off by the goblins of the Misty Mountains, the old trade route through the forest is abandoned and impassable. The North is full of goblins too. Dol Guldur is between him and Lorien, his only remaining trade route is via Laketown, and clearly his people are dependent on it.
He heard the Dragon fell… on Laketown. So, he just lost his last remaining connection to the outside world, and he knows that the treasure of Erebor is going to attract a lot of interested eyes.
I don’t think he expected to be fighting 13 dwarves and a hobbit: I think he assumed they were already dead.
I think he came out to fight the orc-armies that he assumed would descend on Erebor as soon as Smaug was dead, which would cut off his last route to the outside world (since Laketown had just fallen) and leave him completely encircled.
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grundyscribbling:
It’s explicit in the book that Thranduil thought the dwarves were dead before he set out from his own halls. He expected to be dealing with whoever was going to come after the treasure of Thror (and recall that Sauron’s just been driven out of Dol Guldur - so it’s entirely possible that there may well be orcs/goblins/etc on the move), not to find that Thorin Oakenshield was still alive. His initial idea was to claim some of the treasure for himself.
But Thranduil turned aside from that plan when he received messages from Bard. He moved swiftly to help the people of Laketown, who lest we forget, urgently needed his aid.
Look at what we’re told about the people of Laketown during and after Smaug’s attack:
Already men were jumping into the water on every side. Women and children were being huddled into laden boats in the market-pool. Weapons were flung down…soon all the town would be deserted and burned down to the surface of the lake.
Then the dying Smaug fell onto the town he had previously been smashing and setting fire to: Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in.
Then later, on shore: But they really had much to be thankful for, had they thought of it…three quarters of the people of the town had at least escaped alive; their woods and fields and pastures and cattle and most of their boats remained undamaged; and the dragon was dead.
Shelters could be contrived for few (the Master had one) and there was little food (even the Master went short). Many took ill of wet and cold and sorrow that night, and afterwards died, who had escaped uninjured from the ruin of the town; and in the days that followed there was much sickness and great hunger.
From these quotes, we can see a few things: first and foremost, the town itself was destroyed completely, but its people were not. Three quarters of them survived. What’s more, the environs of Laketown - its onshore areas including fields, pastures, and livestock - were unscathed because Smaug was saving them for later. So this was still a place that would be attractive to either raiders or other groups attempting to move in and turf the remaining Lake-people out.
We also see there was a desperate lack of food and shelter. It was already late autumn. (Durin’s Day, when the keyhole of the secret entrance to the Mountain can be seen, is the first day of the last moon of autumn on the threshold of winter.) The people of Laketown had lost not only their homes and livelihoods, but also any food stores they had built up for the winter. They may still have their fields, but most of those fields have likely been harvested already; they have cattle, but slaughtering them all immediately for food is not a good solution either. What’s more, It’s likely many of the survivors were also short on clothing, shoes, etc since the dragon attacked by night and without warning. It’s unlikely many Laketowners kept go bags, so they would have escaped with themselves, the clothes on their back, and whatever might have been close to hand that you could grab on the way out the door.
Moreover, it’s not just food and shelter they don’t have. Among their other lacks are these: adequate weapons with which to defend themselves, since men who have to swim for it are not going to burden themselves with unnecessary weight even if they hadn’t already cast down their weapons; much of the equipment they used for fishing or hunting; most of the tools with which to construct better shelters or new equipment; whatever stocks they had of supplies used by their healers. These things likely all went down with the town. (I’m assuming that if Laketown had smithies or other workshops on shore, that would have been counted in with the things they had to be thankful for.)
So the survivors were in a pretty desperate position, and easy pickings for orcs, goblins, or even other groups of Men who may hear about the destruction of Laketown and try to move in on the presumably now depopulated area. And if you think I’m overstating all this, look at the last quote. It’s explicit that the survivors of Laketown were dying - from cold, from lack of food, and from sickness spreading through a stressed population.
In short, the survivors of Laketown urgently needed help - and Thranduil responded. Look at what Bard says when Thorin demands the elves leave: “The Elvenking is my friend, and he has succoured the people of the Lake in their need, though they had no claim but friendship on him,” answered Bard.
The reason the two armies marched together to the Mountain is that while they left some of the elves and skilled men back at the Lake guarding the women, children, old, and unfit, not to mention working flat out on a new town and better shelters for the winter, they hoped to be able to claim some of the treasure from what they believed to be an empty Mountain to restore Esgaroth and get the survivors back on their feet.
What’s more, let’s remember that some of the treasure in the Mountain was rightfully property of the Lakemen (or at least, those of them that were descendants of the men of Dale, Bard chief among them.) It was made clear that Smaug had added what he plundered from the ruins of Dale to his hoard. With the expectation that the dwarves were dead, Bard had every right to march to that mountain to get what was his and his people’s. He and Thranduil were genuinely surprised to find the dwarves (and Bilbo) still alive.
The siege came about because Thorin was being unreasonable - he refused to acknowledge Bard’s right to any of the treasure, or to do the right thing and help the Lake-men even though the Lake-men had helped him and his party despite doubts about them being who they said they were. And in contrast to Thorin, who was actively preparing for armed confrontation and was the first to initiate violence by shooting at a messenger, the siege was passive - all Bard and Thranduil’s forces did was block anyone from getting into or out of the Mountain until Thorin was willing to talk. He had his treasure, but they had the food. They had every expectation there would be a non-violent resolution when Thorin & company got hungry enough.
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mainecoon76:
Partly, yes, up to the last paragraph with which I very much disagree. Thorin does not outright refuse to help Bard’s people, and things look very different if you look at the situation from a dwarvish perspective. (Which Bilbo doesn’t, because he’s uncomfortable in Erebor and hobbits generally value different things than dwarves.)
What happens is this:
The elves and the people of Laketown come to the Mountain with an army. Thorin greets them, upon which they retreat without an answer, surprised that the dwarves are, in fact, alive.
As they stood pointing and speaking to one another Thorin hailed them: “Who are you,”, he called in a very loud voice, “that come as if in war to the gates of Thorin son of Thrain, King under the Mountain, and what do you desire?”
But they answered nothing. Some turned swiftly back, and the others after gazing for a while at the Gate and its defences soon followed them.
So no one says, “great, you’re alive, look, we have a problem and maybe we could join forces.” Bilbo longs for their company because elven songs appeal more to him than the dwarven fortress, but the dwarves are insulted. I’d say they have a reason.
The next day Bard comes again with a few good arguments, but a very harsh tone: ”Why do you fence yourself like a robber in his hold? We are not yet foes…” I don’t know, maybe because they are only 13 dwarves and there’s an army at their gates? Thorin denies his claim to the treasure, and yes, that is debatable, but he does offer to parley - on his own terms.
But nothing will we give, not even a loaf’s worth, under threat of force. While an armed host lies before our doors, we look upon you as foes and thieves. It is in my mind to ask what share of the inheritance you would have paid our kindred, had you found the hoard unguarded and us slain.”
Bard acknowledges that this is a fair question, but prefers not to answer it:
“A just question,”replied Bard. “But you are not dead, and we are not robbers…”
He then appeals to Thorin’s pity, to which Thorin answers:
“I will not parley, as I have said, with armed men at my gate. Not at all with the Elven King, whom I remember with small kindness. In this debate they have no place. Begone now ere our arrows fly! And if you would speak with me again, first dismiss the elvish host to the woods where it belongs, and then return, laying down your arms before you approach the threshold.”
Thorin answers anger with anger, but I don’t find his request unreasonable. Bard answers: “The Elvenking is my friend …” as you quoted, but this is Bard’s business and absolutely no reason why Thorin should parley with Thranduil, who actively hindered his quest. He then adds “We will give you time to repent your words…,” ending the exchange on a hostile note without acknowledging Thorin’s position.
A few hours later the joined host send a herald who declares that Thorin, “calling himself King under the Mountain” (excuse me?), will be declared a foe unless he delivers a twelfth of the treasure to Bard, and if he wishes to live in friendship with the Men, he should give more.
So. Thorin is unreasonable? Well, yes, this is some really unwise diplomacy. The whole clusterfuck is his fault? Hell NO. Bard isn’t reasonable either, and Thranduil does nothing to make things better. This is a huge political mess in all regards, and everyone’s fault.
Which is sort of the point when the orcs arrive and they all realize that they aren’t actually enemies, just stubborn dickheads who work better as a team.
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grundyscribbling:
Thorin was already looking on the full treasure as his own and preparing to treat anyone except his own kin as foes before the first encounter with the joint elvish/Laketown force. He wasn’t preparing the defenses of the Mountain against orcs or other foes, he was preparing them with an eye on the Lakemen (who had been honest and generous in their dealings with him up to this point) and the elves (who while he may not like them, had not behaved dishonestly.) He could have sent the Lakemen a message to indicate his company’s survival, and offered some polite words regretting stirring up the dragon and that he was in no position to render immediate aid to the Lakemen. He was exchanging messages with Dain, and he knew that it was possible for Bard to understand the thrush, so message passing without sending someone in person was possible, and could have de-escalated the situation before it got truly tense with very little effort. (Not to mention, from a purely utilitarian point of view, Thorin could have likely have bought himself and Dain more time by sending an appropriate message.) He chose not to. He was already treating the survivors of Laketown as suspicious and likely to be treacherous before they came anywhere near the mountain.
And of course Bard and Thranduil came with an army. You don’t go into potentially dangerous territory unarmed, and the death of the dragon is the news in this part of the world. Bard and Thranduil know they are not the only ones who will have taken notice. Expecting anything more than surprise and talking among themselves from the first representatives of their forces is also not reasonable, given that they are not going to be anyone high-ranking enough to do anything but report back to the higher ups ‘hey, the dwarves we thought were dead are very much alive, what now?’ (Kings do not do their scouting personally, and sensible commanders do not march into unknown terrain blindly.) Thorin hailing them as those ‘that come as if in war’ is not a neutral greeting. ‘Who are you that come to the gates of the King under the Mountain’ is just as easy to say - blunt, informative, to the point, but without the undertone of hostility. So Thorin inflamed the situation needlessly.
What’s more, demanding that Bard break with a proven ally as a precondition of negotiations is inherently unreasonable. No matter how much Thorin may dislike Thranduil, the fact remains that Thranduil just came to the aid of the Lakemen when they needed it, with no expectation of anything in return. Bard asking him to leave at Thorin’s demand is not only unlikely, but potentially offensive, and unless he’s a complete fool, Thorin knows that. Nor is Thranduil under any obligation to leave an ally on his own to deal with an opponent who does not appear to be acting in good faith.
Reasonable in this situation is making some slight but pointed gesture of goodwill toward the party he claimed to be willing to parley with, or at the very least not shooting at messengers. (That’s generally considered an act of war.) Thorin was very much being unreasonable. You acknowledged as much yourself: “Thorin is unreasonable? Well, yes, this is some really unwise diplomacy.” Which was my point: the siege came about because Thorin was unreasonable.
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(The discussion then moved into comments instead of reblogs, and I am compressing multiple replies into a single sections for clarity, as I believe they were intended to be read together/sequentially -mainecoon76 please correct me if I am wrong about that!)
mainecoon76 said: Personally, I don't think it's reasonable to look at the behaviour of one of the parties and point out what they could have done differently. If Thorin had been nicer to Bard, it would have gone differently, yes. And if Bard had been nicer to Thorin?
I don't think it's fair to blame Thorin alone. If you put yourself in dwarvish shoes - those of a people, btw, who are used to keep to themselves because they distrust others and are distrusted in return - things aren't so clear-cut. I don't say Thorin was an innocent victim, I'm just protesting the view that the Hobbit movies are the only reason why one might not only see Thranduil *only* as kind and generous.
(Though I admit he was a dick in the movies and that was unwarranted. He probably didn't mean harm. But a strategic retreat would have been a wise idea.)
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And that is when I asked if we could bring it here, because it was getting hard for me to follow, but the discussion was interesting. Unfortunately, since Tumblr is apparently trying to fail as hard as it possibly can, I didn't seemainecoon76's response that moving over here was fine until very late last night (no notifications) and by then I'd written this entry as further Thorin thoughts/explanation of my perspective on Thorin.
Anyway, if you've gotten through all that, my point is not that Thorin should have been nicer, much less leading an anti-Thorin crusade*. And if your theory is that Thorin's behavior was informed more by his distrust of outsiders than affected by the dragon-gold, I'd say that makes shooting at a messenger even less understandable/reasonable - he had no way to know that the reactions from Bard and Thranduil would be as measured as a non-violent siege. Wars of the non-cold variety have started over such incidents, so pulling that on armed opponents you believe to be outright enemies prepared to wrong you to achieve their ends is courting disaster when your assets consist of 'me, my twelve kinsmen, one hobbit who is not big on violence, and this hopefully well fortified mountain which has tons of treasure but very little edible in it', and that's even before considering that one of your opponents was around to see Sauron get beaten and so can be safely assumed to know a thing or two about sieges and battle tactics.
*If you want the pro-Thorin essay, ask me my thoughts about the treatment he got from a certain director. I have Opinions and am prepared to back them with quotes.
Also, I'm kind of terrified to hit 'post' on this behemoth of an entry. Here goes...
edit Turns out I was right to be terrified. There were only three spots where I screwed up the markup.
It's mostly behind a cut, because by the time I thought to ask
mainecoon76 if we could bring it over here for the wonders of (threaded) comments without character limits and not having to keep blogging or post multiple comments to keep discussing, the reblog chain had already gotten fairly long.Why did Thranduil (and the Lake-men) feel the need to bring an army against thirteen dwarves and one hobbit?
(Also, really, Bilbo? You don’t like the dwarves’ songs because they’re warlike, but the army besieging the mountain is fine because the elven songs are pretty?)
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I assumed that Thranduil brought an army partly because kings travel with warbands.
But also because he’s a king who has been slowly losing ground to Dol Guldur, it’s weird creepy darkness and the giant spiders for centuries. Even his kingdom is now called Mirkwood now rather than Greenwood.
Geographically, he’s almost entirely encircled by enemies. His route to Rivendell through the mountains is now cut off by the goblins of the Misty Mountains, the old trade route through the forest is abandoned and impassable. The North is full of goblins too. Dol Guldur is between him and Lorien, his only remaining trade route is via Laketown, and clearly his people are dependent on it.
He heard the Dragon fell… on Laketown. So, he just lost his last remaining connection to the outside world, and he knows that the treasure of Erebor is going to attract a lot of interested eyes.
I don’t think he expected to be fighting 13 dwarves and a hobbit: I think he assumed they were already dead.
I think he came out to fight the orc-armies that he assumed would descend on Erebor as soon as Smaug was dead, which would cut off his last route to the outside world (since Laketown had just fallen) and leave him completely encircled.
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It’s explicit in the book that Thranduil thought the dwarves were dead before he set out from his own halls. He expected to be dealing with whoever was going to come after the treasure of Thror (and recall that Sauron’s just been driven out of Dol Guldur - so it’s entirely possible that there may well be orcs/goblins/etc on the move), not to find that Thorin Oakenshield was still alive. His initial idea was to claim some of the treasure for himself.
But Thranduil turned aside from that plan when he received messages from Bard. He moved swiftly to help the people of Laketown, who lest we forget, urgently needed his aid.
Look at what we’re told about the people of Laketown during and after Smaug’s attack:
Already men were jumping into the water on every side. Women and children were being huddled into laden boats in the market-pool. Weapons were flung down…soon all the town would be deserted and burned down to the surface of the lake.
Then the dying Smaug fell onto the town he had previously been smashing and setting fire to: Full on the town he fell. His last throes splintered it to sparks and gledes. The lake roared in.
Then later, on shore: But they really had much to be thankful for, had they thought of it…three quarters of the people of the town had at least escaped alive; their woods and fields and pastures and cattle and most of their boats remained undamaged; and the dragon was dead.
Shelters could be contrived for few (the Master had one) and there was little food (even the Master went short). Many took ill of wet and cold and sorrow that night, and afterwards died, who had escaped uninjured from the ruin of the town; and in the days that followed there was much sickness and great hunger.
From these quotes, we can see a few things: first and foremost, the town itself was destroyed completely, but its people were not. Three quarters of them survived. What’s more, the environs of Laketown - its onshore areas including fields, pastures, and livestock - were unscathed because Smaug was saving them for later. So this was still a place that would be attractive to either raiders or other groups attempting to move in and turf the remaining Lake-people out.
We also see there was a desperate lack of food and shelter. It was already late autumn. (Durin’s Day, when the keyhole of the secret entrance to the Mountain can be seen, is the first day of the last moon of autumn on the threshold of winter.) The people of Laketown had lost not only their homes and livelihoods, but also any food stores they had built up for the winter. They may still have their fields, but most of those fields have likely been harvested already; they have cattle, but slaughtering them all immediately for food is not a good solution either. What’s more, It’s likely many of the survivors were also short on clothing, shoes, etc since the dragon attacked by night and without warning. It’s unlikely many Laketowners kept go bags, so they would have escaped with themselves, the clothes on their back, and whatever might have been close to hand that you could grab on the way out the door.
Moreover, it’s not just food and shelter they don’t have. Among their other lacks are these: adequate weapons with which to defend themselves, since men who have to swim for it are not going to burden themselves with unnecessary weight even if they hadn’t already cast down their weapons; much of the equipment they used for fishing or hunting; most of the tools with which to construct better shelters or new equipment; whatever stocks they had of supplies used by their healers. These things likely all went down with the town. (I’m assuming that if Laketown had smithies or other workshops on shore, that would have been counted in with the things they had to be thankful for.)
So the survivors were in a pretty desperate position, and easy pickings for orcs, goblins, or even other groups of Men who may hear about the destruction of Laketown and try to move in on the presumably now depopulated area. And if you think I’m overstating all this, look at the last quote. It’s explicit that the survivors of Laketown were dying - from cold, from lack of food, and from sickness spreading through a stressed population.
In short, the survivors of Laketown urgently needed help - and Thranduil responded. Look at what Bard says when Thorin demands the elves leave: “The Elvenking is my friend, and he has succoured the people of the Lake in their need, though they had no claim but friendship on him,” answered Bard.
The reason the two armies marched together to the Mountain is that while they left some of the elves and skilled men back at the Lake guarding the women, children, old, and unfit, not to mention working flat out on a new town and better shelters for the winter, they hoped to be able to claim some of the treasure from what they believed to be an empty Mountain to restore Esgaroth and get the survivors back on their feet.
What’s more, let’s remember that some of the treasure in the Mountain was rightfully property of the Lakemen (or at least, those of them that were descendants of the men of Dale, Bard chief among them.) It was made clear that Smaug had added what he plundered from the ruins of Dale to his hoard. With the expectation that the dwarves were dead, Bard had every right to march to that mountain to get what was his and his people’s. He and Thranduil were genuinely surprised to find the dwarves (and Bilbo) still alive.
The siege came about because Thorin was being unreasonable - he refused to acknowledge Bard’s right to any of the treasure, or to do the right thing and help the Lake-men even though the Lake-men had helped him and his party despite doubts about them being who they said they were. And in contrast to Thorin, who was actively preparing for armed confrontation and was the first to initiate violence by shooting at a messenger, the siege was passive - all Bard and Thranduil’s forces did was block anyone from getting into or out of the Mountain until Thorin was willing to talk. He had his treasure, but they had the food. They had every expectation there would be a non-violent resolution when Thorin & company got hungry enough.
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Partly, yes, up to the last paragraph with which I very much disagree. Thorin does not outright refuse to help Bard’s people, and things look very different if you look at the situation from a dwarvish perspective. (Which Bilbo doesn’t, because he’s uncomfortable in Erebor and hobbits generally value different things than dwarves.)
What happens is this:
The elves and the people of Laketown come to the Mountain with an army. Thorin greets them, upon which they retreat without an answer, surprised that the dwarves are, in fact, alive.
As they stood pointing and speaking to one another Thorin hailed them: “Who are you,”, he called in a very loud voice, “that come as if in war to the gates of Thorin son of Thrain, King under the Mountain, and what do you desire?”
But they answered nothing. Some turned swiftly back, and the others after gazing for a while at the Gate and its defences soon followed them.
So no one says, “great, you’re alive, look, we have a problem and maybe we could join forces.” Bilbo longs for their company because elven songs appeal more to him than the dwarven fortress, but the dwarves are insulted. I’d say they have a reason.
The next day Bard comes again with a few good arguments, but a very harsh tone: ”Why do you fence yourself like a robber in his hold? We are not yet foes…” I don’t know, maybe because they are only 13 dwarves and there’s an army at their gates? Thorin denies his claim to the treasure, and yes, that is debatable, but he does offer to parley - on his own terms.
But nothing will we give, not even a loaf’s worth, under threat of force. While an armed host lies before our doors, we look upon you as foes and thieves. It is in my mind to ask what share of the inheritance you would have paid our kindred, had you found the hoard unguarded and us slain.”
Bard acknowledges that this is a fair question, but prefers not to answer it:
“A just question,”replied Bard. “But you are not dead, and we are not robbers…”
He then appeals to Thorin’s pity, to which Thorin answers:
“I will not parley, as I have said, with armed men at my gate. Not at all with the Elven King, whom I remember with small kindness. In this debate they have no place. Begone now ere our arrows fly! And if you would speak with me again, first dismiss the elvish host to the woods where it belongs, and then return, laying down your arms before you approach the threshold.”
Thorin answers anger with anger, but I don’t find his request unreasonable. Bard answers: “The Elvenking is my friend …” as you quoted, but this is Bard’s business and absolutely no reason why Thorin should parley with Thranduil, who actively hindered his quest. He then adds “We will give you time to repent your words…,” ending the exchange on a hostile note without acknowledging Thorin’s position.
A few hours later the joined host send a herald who declares that Thorin, “calling himself King under the Mountain” (excuse me?), will be declared a foe unless he delivers a twelfth of the treasure to Bard, and if he wishes to live in friendship with the Men, he should give more.
So. Thorin is unreasonable? Well, yes, this is some really unwise diplomacy. The whole clusterfuck is his fault? Hell NO. Bard isn’t reasonable either, and Thranduil does nothing to make things better. This is a huge political mess in all regards, and everyone’s fault.
Which is sort of the point when the orcs arrive and they all realize that they aren’t actually enemies, just stubborn dickheads who work better as a team.
---
Thorin was already looking on the full treasure as his own and preparing to treat anyone except his own kin as foes before the first encounter with the joint elvish/Laketown force. He wasn’t preparing the defenses of the Mountain against orcs or other foes, he was preparing them with an eye on the Lakemen (who had been honest and generous in their dealings with him up to this point) and the elves (who while he may not like them, had not behaved dishonestly.) He could have sent the Lakemen a message to indicate his company’s survival, and offered some polite words regretting stirring up the dragon and that he was in no position to render immediate aid to the Lakemen. He was exchanging messages with Dain, and he knew that it was possible for Bard to understand the thrush, so message passing without sending someone in person was possible, and could have de-escalated the situation before it got truly tense with very little effort. (Not to mention, from a purely utilitarian point of view, Thorin could have likely have bought himself and Dain more time by sending an appropriate message.) He chose not to. He was already treating the survivors of Laketown as suspicious and likely to be treacherous before they came anywhere near the mountain.
And of course Bard and Thranduil came with an army. You don’t go into potentially dangerous territory unarmed, and the death of the dragon is the news in this part of the world. Bard and Thranduil know they are not the only ones who will have taken notice. Expecting anything more than surprise and talking among themselves from the first representatives of their forces is also not reasonable, given that they are not going to be anyone high-ranking enough to do anything but report back to the higher ups ‘hey, the dwarves we thought were dead are very much alive, what now?’ (Kings do not do their scouting personally, and sensible commanders do not march into unknown terrain blindly.) Thorin hailing them as those ‘that come as if in war’ is not a neutral greeting. ‘Who are you that come to the gates of the King under the Mountain’ is just as easy to say - blunt, informative, to the point, but without the undertone of hostility. So Thorin inflamed the situation needlessly.
What’s more, demanding that Bard break with a proven ally as a precondition of negotiations is inherently unreasonable. No matter how much Thorin may dislike Thranduil, the fact remains that Thranduil just came to the aid of the Lakemen when they needed it, with no expectation of anything in return. Bard asking him to leave at Thorin’s demand is not only unlikely, but potentially offensive, and unless he’s a complete fool, Thorin knows that. Nor is Thranduil under any obligation to leave an ally on his own to deal with an opponent who does not appear to be acting in good faith.
Reasonable in this situation is making some slight but pointed gesture of goodwill toward the party he claimed to be willing to parley with, or at the very least not shooting at messengers. (That’s generally considered an act of war.) Thorin was very much being unreasonable. You acknowledged as much yourself: “Thorin is unreasonable? Well, yes, this is some really unwise diplomacy.” Which was my point: the siege came about because Thorin was unreasonable.
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(The discussion then moved into comments instead of reblogs, and I am compressing multiple replies into a single sections for clarity, as I believe they were intended to be read together/sequentially -
mainecoon76 please correct me if I am wrong about that!)I don't think it's fair to blame Thorin alone. If you put yourself in dwarvish shoes - those of a people, btw, who are used to keep to themselves because they distrust others and are distrusted in return - things aren't so clear-cut. I don't say Thorin was an innocent victim, I'm just protesting the view that the Hobbit movies are the only reason why one might not only see Thranduil *only* as kind and generous.
(Though I admit he was a dick in the movies and that was unwarranted. He probably didn't mean harm. But a strategic retreat would have been a wise idea.)
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And that is when I asked if we could bring it here, because it was getting hard for me to follow, but the discussion was interesting. Unfortunately, since Tumblr is apparently trying to fail as hard as it possibly can, I didn't see
mainecoon76's response that moving over here was fine until very late last night (no notifications) and by then I'd written this entry as further Thorin thoughts/explanation of my perspective on Thorin.Anyway, if you've gotten through all that, my point is not that Thorin should have been nicer, much less leading an anti-Thorin crusade*. And if your theory is that Thorin's behavior was informed more by his distrust of outsiders than affected by the dragon-gold, I'd say that makes shooting at a messenger even less understandable/reasonable - he had no way to know that the reactions from Bard and Thranduil would be as measured as a non-violent siege. Wars of the non-cold variety have started over such incidents, so pulling that on armed opponents you believe to be outright enemies prepared to wrong you to achieve their ends is courting disaster when your assets consist of 'me, my twelve kinsmen, one hobbit who is not big on violence, and this hopefully well fortified mountain which has tons of treasure but very little edible in it', and that's even before considering that one of your opponents was around to see Sauron get beaten and so can be safely assumed to know a thing or two about sieges and battle tactics.
*If you want the pro-Thorin essay, ask me my thoughts about the treatment he got from a certain director. I have Opinions and am prepared to back them with quotes.
Also, I'm kind of terrified to hit 'post' on this behemoth of an entry. Here goes...
edit Turns out I was right to be terrified. There were only three spots where I screwed up the markup.
