I'm not in a fervor, grundy. I'm trying to see everyone's perspective, and, as I've said several times now, I believe I *do* kind of see everyone's perspective. (It's a professional habit and sometimes makes it complicated to take sides.) But just because I get why they did what they did, it doesn't mean they're above reproach.
Anyway, if you'd started this conversation by claiming that Thorin is a poor innocent victim and Bard was mean to him, it would have gone very differently.
Yes, I'm quite sure I remember the book. (Not your fault, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I rediscovered Tolkien in the Hobbit fandom, after being away for several years. There's an unfortunate tendency among people who dislike the movies to claim that Hobbit fans only thirst for Hot Dwarves and don't care about the book. Apparently - and no joke, I've heard this - one sign of a True Tolkien Nerd is that they hate the Hobbit movies? This is bullshit, and repeated exposure to this bullshit may be why I'm reacting a bit snappy here.) The book says that that the elves treated the dwarves harshly because of their old anti-dwarf grudges even though Thorin's family had nothing to do with that, and also that Thorin was angry about this - before the questioning even began. (Yes, again, it was unwise not to cooperate. But dwarves are described as stubborn and proud.) It also says that Thranduil had a well-known weakness for riches and that's why Thorin was especially unwilling to be pressured for information.
Was Thorin in his right mind? That is debatable, probably not. But unlike in the movies, I think book!Thorin isn't acting that much out of character. He wants this treasure, and especially the Arkenstone, before he even sets foot into Erebor, and I don't think he can be entirely excused with a mental condition. Pride, thick-headedness, grudginess and anger: he displays all those traits throughout the quest. *shrugs* So you see, I'm not even so much pro-dwarf. Just saying that they all made mistakes. Bard is grim and undiplomatic (and while I'm criticizing him, he's the one who can most likely be excused because he never learned this and at the time was pissed at Smaug, the Master, the Dwarves and the world in general). Thranduil has anti-dwarf resentments. Both attempt to force the dwarves into submission. Note that all three leaders learn from their mistakes and move on, and I think that's wonderful.
(No idea. It comes to me now that it might be difficult to find orcs around here. Hm.)
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Date: 2018-12-07 05:25 pm (UTC)Anyway, if you'd started this conversation by claiming that Thorin is a poor innocent victim and Bard was mean to him, it would have gone very differently.
Yes, I'm quite sure I remember the book. (Not your fault, but this is a pet peeve of mine. I rediscovered Tolkien in the Hobbit fandom, after being away for several years. There's an unfortunate tendency among people who dislike the movies to claim that Hobbit fans only thirst for Hot Dwarves and don't care about the book. Apparently - and no joke, I've heard this - one sign of a True Tolkien Nerd is that they hate the Hobbit movies? This is bullshit, and repeated exposure to this bullshit may be why I'm reacting a bit snappy here.) The book says that that the elves treated the dwarves harshly because of their old anti-dwarf grudges even though Thorin's family had nothing to do with that, and also that Thorin was angry about this - before the questioning even began. (Yes, again, it was unwise not to cooperate. But dwarves are described as stubborn and proud.) It also says that Thranduil had a well-known weakness for riches and that's why Thorin was especially unwilling to be pressured for information.
Was Thorin in his right mind? That is debatable, probably not. But unlike in the movies, I think book!Thorin isn't acting that much out of character. He wants this treasure, and especially the Arkenstone, before he even sets foot into Erebor, and I don't think he can be entirely excused with a mental condition. Pride, thick-headedness, grudginess and anger: he displays all those traits throughout the quest. *shrugs* So you see, I'm not even so much pro-dwarf. Just saying that they all made mistakes. Bard is grim and undiplomatic (and while I'm criticizing him, he's the one who can most likely be excused because he never learned this and at the time was pissed at Smaug, the Master, the Dwarves and the world in general). Thranduil has anti-dwarf resentments. Both attempt to force the dwarves into submission. Note that all three leaders learn from their mistakes and move on, and I think that's wonderful.
(No idea. It comes to me now that it might be difficult to find orcs around here. Hm.)