Sorry, but I still think Bard and Thranduil were acting reasonably given the facts they had in hand.
How does Bard know who to consult with if Thorin is dead? Unlike Thranduil who is both immortal and has been kinging for the entirety of the Third Age, Bard just got acclaimed king a few days ago in the wake of a major disaster. Up until then, he was a captain of the guard in Laketown. The family tree of the line of Durin (much less where to find them now) isn't anything I'd reasonably expect him to know off the top of his head, or have made it a priority to look up under the circumstances. He's learning on the job. And unlike Thorin, who's unwilling to acknowledge anyone else might have a point, he immediately conceded that it was a fair question on being asked what they would have done had they found the dwarves all dead, with no hesitation or beating around the bush. But the question was moot given the facts on the ground. He was there to discuss actualities not hypotheticals.
Actuality: Thorin's alive and well and talking to him, though more as an enemy than as a friend. Actuality: Some of that gold rightfully belongs to the heirs of Dale. Actuality: Bard's people urgently need the region stable - they're in no condition to cope with external threats at the moment. Actuality: the Lake-men are going to be lucky to make it through the winter without further losses, and their continued survival depends heavily on Thranduil's good will. Actuality: he can't afford to offend Thranduil. Actuality: Thorin's not talking like someone who's going to concede anything. If Bard has to pick between them, Thranduil is unquestionably the surer choice.
What's more, Bard was not insulting to Thorin until Thorin had been insulting first. Tit for tat is how these diplomatic games are played. Thorin started with the 'who are you that come armed for war' - in fact, by the time he and Bard are talking, he's said it twice - so he can hardly complain about 'fencing yourself like a robber in your hold'. Could Bard have held back? Maybe. Is it reasonable to expect he won't respond to needling from Thorin in kind? Not so much.
As for your argument that Thranduil somehow acted unreasonably, how was it unreasonable for him to detain people who were trespassing in his realm without his leave and refused to give a straight answer to why they were there? Thorin has no grounds to get outraged about Thranduil's presence in his territory after his behavior in Thranduil's. He was asked outright why he and his people were in the forest and not only refused to answer, he got snarky about the spiders to boot. Furthermore, that very valuable elven sword wasn't Thorin's by any right except 'finders keepers', at least not that he bothered to tell Thranduil. If he wanted to lay claim to it, he'd have done better to actually answer questions when asked and invoke Elrond not disputing his possession, given the sword is from Elrond's great-grandfather's kingdom.
You can't demand that Bard and Thranduil bend over backwards to be polite and deferential when Thorin's acting like a snot, treating them like enemies and making demands from a position of weakness that look to anyone even the least bit suspicious like he's just playing for time. That's just not how diplomacy goes, at least not diplomacy that anyone expects to be effective.
Dain might or might not have made the same mistakes. We don't know. He certainly doesn't seem to be as susceptible to the effects of dragon gold, and it's clear from the Master's behavior that those effects do continue after the Battle of Five Armies. Unfortunately, if we're looking for a dwarf comparison, Dain is all we've really got - he's King all the way through the Ring War.
(Thorin's behavior absofreakinglutely got him and his sister-sons killed. If a commander makes a boneheaded move in battle, that's not on his enemy, that's on him. Thorin didn't coordinate battle strategy with anyone else, just came leaping out and led to a breakdown in discipline that could have easily lost the allied armies the battle regardless of how well they were doing prior to his intervention. His charge may have been momentarily effective, but he overextended, lost any momentum he had, and was overwhelmed. Sorry, but that's on Thorin. Since Kili and Fili defended him with shield and body, he took them down with him. The truly unfortunate part is that Thorin survived his wounds long enough that he likely was aware they'd been killed. If it helps, I take just as harsh a view of Gwindor's foolish charge at the Nirnaeth and Fëanor's dumbassery in general. This isn't an anti-dwarf or even an anti-Thorin thing, this is an anti-wasting people thing.)
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Date: 2018-12-06 09:35 pm (UTC)Sorry, but I still think Bard and Thranduil were acting reasonably given the facts they had in hand.
How does Bard know who to consult with if Thorin is dead? Unlike Thranduil who is both immortal and has been kinging for the entirety of the Third Age, Bard just got acclaimed king a few days ago in the wake of a major disaster. Up until then, he was a captain of the guard in Laketown. The family tree of the line of Durin (much less where to find them now) isn't anything I'd reasonably expect him to know off the top of his head, or have made it a priority to look up under the circumstances. He's learning on the job. And unlike Thorin, who's unwilling to acknowledge anyone else might have a point, he immediately conceded that it was a fair question on being asked what they would have done had they found the dwarves all dead, with no hesitation or beating around the bush. But the question was moot given the facts on the ground. He was there to discuss actualities not hypotheticals.
Actuality: Thorin's alive and well and talking to him, though more as an enemy than as a friend. Actuality: Some of that gold rightfully belongs to the heirs of Dale. Actuality: Bard's people urgently need the region stable - they're in no condition to cope with external threats at the moment. Actuality: the Lake-men are going to be lucky to make it through the winter without further losses, and their continued survival depends heavily on Thranduil's good will. Actuality: he can't afford to offend Thranduil. Actuality: Thorin's not talking like someone who's going to concede anything. If Bard has to pick between them, Thranduil is unquestionably the surer choice.
What's more, Bard was not insulting to Thorin until Thorin had been insulting first. Tit for tat is how these diplomatic games are played. Thorin started with the 'who are you that come armed for war' - in fact, by the time he and Bard are talking, he's said it twice - so he can hardly complain about 'fencing yourself like a robber in your hold'. Could Bard have held back? Maybe. Is it reasonable to expect he won't respond to needling from Thorin in kind? Not so much.
As for your argument that Thranduil somehow acted unreasonably, how was it unreasonable for him to detain people who were trespassing in his realm without his leave and refused to give a straight answer to why they were there? Thorin has no grounds to get outraged about Thranduil's presence in his territory after his behavior in Thranduil's. He was asked outright why he and his people were in the forest and not only refused to answer, he got snarky about the spiders to boot. Furthermore, that very valuable elven sword wasn't Thorin's by any right except 'finders keepers', at least not that he bothered to tell Thranduil. If he wanted to lay claim to it, he'd have done better to actually answer questions when asked and invoke Elrond not disputing his possession, given the sword is from Elrond's great-grandfather's kingdom.
You can't demand that Bard and Thranduil bend over backwards to be polite and deferential when Thorin's acting like a snot, treating them like enemies and making demands from a position of weakness that look to anyone even the least bit suspicious like he's just playing for time. That's just not how diplomacy goes, at least not diplomacy that anyone expects to be effective.
Dain might or might not have made the same mistakes. We don't know. He certainly doesn't seem to be as susceptible to the effects of dragon gold, and it's clear from the Master's behavior that those effects do continue after the Battle of Five Armies. Unfortunately, if we're looking for a dwarf comparison, Dain is all we've really got - he's King all the way through the Ring War.
(Thorin's behavior absofreakinglutely got him and his sister-sons killed. If a commander makes a boneheaded move in battle, that's not on his enemy, that's on him. Thorin didn't coordinate battle strategy with anyone else, just came leaping out and led to a breakdown in discipline that could have easily lost the allied armies the battle regardless of how well they were doing prior to his intervention. His charge may have been momentarily effective, but he overextended, lost any momentum he had, and was overwhelmed. Sorry, but that's on Thorin. Since Kili and Fili defended him with shield and body, he took them down with him. The truly unfortunate part is that Thorin survived his wounds long enough that he likely was aware they'd been killed. If it helps, I take just as harsh a view of Gwindor's foolish charge at the Nirnaeth and Fëanor's dumbassery in general. This isn't an anti-dwarf or even an anti-Thorin thing, this is an anti-wasting people thing.)