It's unreasonable for them to be there with armies if they knew Thorin was there. But as Thorin didn't tell anyone that he and his people were alive, he can hardly complain about them coming into what must otherwise be presumed to be undefended territory armed. Having concealed information that would have certainly altered the manner of Bard and Thranduil's approach, Thorin can't then snipe at them for coming as they did. Also relevant: with Thorin presumed dead, Bard has every right to claim the portion of the treasure that belongs to him and the other heirs of Dale. And with Thorin having already insulted him twice, Bard getting in an insult of his own is hardly a 'major diplomatic slip-up', particularly not in a man who's been presented as grim and blunt throughout.
Where did I say Thorin should be 'friendly'? I'm saying he should have been diplomatic. I'm not talking about being nice, I'm talking about making nice and verbally out-manuevering Bard. (Given that Thorin is more practiced than Bard at oratory and public speaking, it should be easy for him to do!) Publicly proclaiming his confidence his 'friends' were only coming to check on him puts Thranduil and Bard in very different position than announcing he thinks they're there to steal from him. By expressing such confidence, Thorin still wrong-foots them, but in a way they can't get their backs up about - because it's what they should be doing. Bard can't very well admit that such an expression of confidence is misplaced! The best he can do at that point is say that he had feared the worst and is pleased to be wrong. And by not starting with the insults, Thorin doesn't get insults in return - which changes the tone of the subsequent interaction.
This also overlooks the not insignificant detail that while Thorin may be justified in his distrust, it's incontrovertible that without the aid of the Lake-men, he would not be in the Mountain at all. By treating their representative as if they now have to do still more to win his trust and deserve fair treatment after the fallout of his actions has completely destroyed their town and put them on the brink of complete collapse, he's showing a degree of ingratitude and entitlement that doesn't bode well for future interactions. And if I'm in Bard's shoes, there's no way I can indulge such an attitude. If I'm not trading with the Mountain - and with an attitude like Thorin's showing, I don't have much confidence I will be - I'm still going to have to trade with someone, and establishing a reputation for groveling and giving it all away as Thorin is demanding I do sets me up for uphill battles in future trade and diplomatic deals.
And again, I don't see how any of what you're claiming should happen works out for the Mountain long term. Sure, Thorin can force the Lakemen to their knees and make them grovel before he'll deign to give up what's due the descendants of Dale. (If he does at all - it doesn't sound from the text like he was planning on it.) But all that's going to do is breed resentment, and Thorin's people will pay for that in the form of higher food prices when they have to import food from farther away and a distrustful neighbor right on their doorstep. That's not the prosperous and respected kingdom Thorin recalls in his youth.
You're trying to say that Thorin is within his rights to demand what Thranduil and Bard were doing near his Mountain when they didn't know he was alive, but turn around and say that Thranduil - whose kingdom has been existent longer than Thorin has been alive - had no right to question what the dwarves were doing wandering around in his territory well away from the established road, and should have accepted Thorin refusing to answer such a basic question? *blinks*
The orcs may have been the aggressor in the battle, but that does not preclude Thorin or any other commanders of the allied armies making bad decisions. It's possible for me to say that the Japanese were at fault for US entrance into WWII yet still identify tactical decisions made by US commanders in that war that led to unnecessary casualties. The one does not negate the other.
Failure of discipline in battle has lost many a battle over the centuries. Experienced tacticians will attempt to engineer such failures by enemy forces - by offering an apparent 'retreat' or break in their lines, they can lure overconfident or undisciplined troops into a trap. Thorin's 'to me, to me!' moment broke the lines of both Dain and Bard's forces, and even drew off some of Thranduil's people, who all obeyed him above their own commanders. That kind of breakdown is something that you generally try to avoid in a battle. The text makes it clear Thorin's attack was successful in the short-term only - he went beyond the arms of the mountain and thus beyond help from what remained of the forces of his allies on those arms, and was being overwhelmed.
Down, heedless of order, rushed all the dwarves of Dain to his help. Down too came many of the Lake-men, for Bard could not restrain them; and out upon the other side came many of the spearmen of the elves. Once again the goblins were stricken in in the valley; and they were piled in heaps till Dale was dark and hideous with their corpses. The Wargs were scattered and Thorin drove right against the bodyguard of Bolg. But he could not pierce their ranks. Already behind him among the goblin dead lay many men and many dwarves, and many a fair elf that should have lived yet long ages merrily in the wood. And as the valley widened his onset grew ever slower. His numbers were too few. His flanks were unguarded. Soon the attackers were attacked, and they were forced into a great ring, facing every way, hemmed all about with goblins and wolves returning to the assault. The bodyguard of Bolg came howling against them, and drove in upon their ranks like waves upon cliffs of sand. Their friends could not help them, for the assault from the Mountain was renewed with redoubled force, and upon either side men and elves were being slowly beaten down.
Far from saving the day, Thorin's charge petered out and left him surrounded, outnumbered, with no hope of relief and the defenses on the arms of the Mountain too depleted to withstand renewed assault. The allied armies were about to be soundly beaten, and would have been but for the timely arrival of the Eagles. Forgive me, but I think Thorin's 'calculated risk' was very badly calculated indeed. It was a high-risk gamble with little prospect of payoff.
no subject
Where did I say Thorin should be 'friendly'? I'm saying he should have been diplomatic. I'm not talking about being nice, I'm talking about making nice and verbally out-manuevering Bard. (Given that Thorin is more practiced than Bard at oratory and public speaking, it should be easy for him to do!) Publicly proclaiming his confidence his 'friends' were only coming to check on him puts Thranduil and Bard in very different position than announcing he thinks they're there to steal from him. By expressing such confidence, Thorin still wrong-foots them, but in a way they can't get their backs up about - because it's what they should be doing. Bard can't very well admit that such an expression of confidence is misplaced! The best he can do at that point is say that he had feared the worst and is pleased to be wrong. And by not starting with the insults, Thorin doesn't get insults in return - which changes the tone of the subsequent interaction.
This also overlooks the not insignificant detail that while Thorin may be justified in his distrust, it's incontrovertible that without the aid of the Lake-men, he would not be in the Mountain at all. By treating their representative as if they now have to do still more to win his trust and deserve fair treatment after the fallout of his actions has completely destroyed their town and put them on the brink of complete collapse, he's showing a degree of ingratitude and entitlement that doesn't bode well for future interactions. And if I'm in Bard's shoes, there's no way I can indulge such an attitude. If I'm not trading with the Mountain - and with an attitude like Thorin's showing, I don't have much confidence I will be - I'm still going to have to trade with someone, and establishing a reputation for groveling and giving it all away as Thorin is demanding I do sets me up for uphill battles in future trade and diplomatic deals.
And again, I don't see how any of what you're claiming should happen works out for the Mountain long term. Sure, Thorin can force the Lakemen to their knees and make them grovel before he'll deign to give up what's due the descendants of Dale. (If he does at all - it doesn't sound from the text like he was planning on it.) But all that's going to do is breed resentment, and Thorin's people will pay for that in the form of higher food prices when they have to import food from farther away and a distrustful neighbor right on their doorstep. That's not the prosperous and respected kingdom Thorin recalls in his youth.
You're trying to say that Thorin is within his rights to demand what Thranduil and Bard were doing near his Mountain when they didn't know he was alive, but turn around and say that Thranduil - whose kingdom has been existent longer than Thorin has been alive - had no right to question what the dwarves were doing wandering around in his territory well away from the established road, and should have accepted Thorin refusing to answer such a basic question? *blinks*
The orcs may have been the aggressor in the battle, but that does not preclude Thorin or any other commanders of the allied armies making bad decisions. It's possible for me to say that the Japanese were at fault for US entrance into WWII yet still identify tactical decisions made by US commanders in that war that led to unnecessary casualties. The one does not negate the other.
Failure of discipline in battle has lost many a battle over the centuries. Experienced tacticians will attempt to engineer such failures by enemy forces - by offering an apparent 'retreat' or break in their lines, they can lure overconfident or undisciplined troops into a trap. Thorin's 'to me, to me!' moment broke the lines of both Dain and Bard's forces, and even drew off some of Thranduil's people, who all obeyed him above their own commanders. That kind of breakdown is something that you generally try to avoid in a battle. The text makes it clear Thorin's attack was successful in the short-term only - he went beyond the arms of the mountain and thus beyond help from what remained of the forces of his allies on those arms, and was being overwhelmed.
Far from saving the day, Thorin's charge petered out and left him surrounded, outnumbered, with no hope of relief and the defenses on the arms of the Mountain too depleted to withstand renewed assault. The allied armies were about to be soundly beaten, and would have been but for the timely arrival of the Eagles. Forgive me, but I think Thorin's 'calculated risk' was very badly calculated indeed. It was a high-risk gamble with little prospect of payoff.